Nebraska’s Atheist State Senator Introduces Bill That Would Force Churches to Pay Property Taxes
I've never understood why churches are exempt from taxes; isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state?!?!? This makes total sense to me and the best part is the bill he is proposing is that he's taken the exact wording from a bill with the current list of groups that are exempt from paying property taxes; and just crosses out any that have the word "religious" that's in front of any of them.
I've never understood why churches are exempt from taxes; isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state?!?!? This makes total sense to me and the best part is the bill he is proposing is that he's taken the exact wording from a bill with the current list of groups that are exempt from paying property taxes; and just crosses out any that have the word "religious" that's in front of any of them.
Nebraska’s Atheist State Senator Introduces Bill That Would Force Churches to Pay Property Taxes
I agree. After all, there are tax cuts for charitable contributions and if a church is doing its job and ministering to its community, wouldn't it have large charitable deductions anyway?
I think if they want to donate to a charitable cause they can have a deduction, but let's call a spade a space… churhces are a business and should be taxed as such.
agree
+If you tax an organization then you entitle them to representation. I am a woman of faith and I believe in the wall of separation. I DO NOT want churches coming together to send paid lobbyist to Sacramento knocking on doors about this or that piece of legislation talking about "We pay property taxes that go to fund the schools in our city, therefore we should have a say in what the State Board of Education dictates as the curriculum".
+Adreana Langston has a REALLY good point. I mean, taxing churches would add a lot of revenue but I don't want the resulting vote influence.
+Sarah Rios s
Did you miss the past few elections? There were a lot of churches preaching for a particular candidate or two…
That horse has already left the barn I'm afraid.
+Adreana Langston +Sarah Rios Except that the churches already do have a lot of vote influence; there's a reason that campaigning politicians make churches a major stop, and that church organizations have basically acted as get-out-the-vote organizations for candidates their leadership likes. And they most definitely demand a say in educational curricula anywhere they have numbers. So I think the ship of trying to keep churches out of politics has already sailed…
If you don't believe that churches have an influence on politics, just go to Salt Lake City!
+Yonatan Zunger All Saints Episcopal, a progressive Christian congregation in Pasadena, California was investigated by the IRS in maybe 2009 (you can google it) for statements that Rector Edward Bacon made during the 2008 election cycle. Now I spit out my morning tea and sent a $20.00 donation to All Saints when I read in the Los Angeles Times that this was happening. But I never disagreed with the idea that it was proper for the IRS to make these kinds of investigations. I just thought the statements that triggered the investigations were not endorsement statements. If churches were taxed, the people who made the complaint to the IRS that triggered the investigation would have been ignored because the churches, as tax payers, would have a right to endorse candidates who would have control over how that tax money is spent. Right now politicians CHOOSE to listen to churches because they want that campaign cash or because they think they will get more votes for doing so. If churches were taxed politicians would be OBLIGATED to listen to churches because when you tax somebody you make them your constituent.
But my god-free brothers and sisters really are not thinking this through. In Nevada brothels ASKED to be taxed. Why? Because they knew that once cities and counties and the state got used to getting that additional stream of money, no rule or regulation would ever be passed that would make brothels illegal or curtail their business. No government wants to turn off a spigot of money, ever.
If the atheist agenda is to help create a world where people no longer pursue a relationship with the Divine because people no longer believe the Divine exists, then taxing churches is not a behavior conducive to this goal. Once governments, especially local governments, get use to getting that property tax revenue, believe-you-me, they are going to want churches to continue to exist. They would not say that out loud because it would be illegal. But they would not want the congregation to shrink so low that the church would have to sell the property to a commercial/corporate entity. Because commercial/corporate entities hire tax lawyers to find ways to lower the amount of property and other taxes paid to government. Maybe the Vatican and the Mormons are sophisticated enough to have the resources to do that but most local churches are not. So the government is assured more money out of churches than they would get if the property were sold to a commercial entity. That sets up a situation where it is in government's interest to keep church pews filled enough to support the taxes the church needs to pay on the property. I do not think that is an outcome that would correlate with what god-free people say they want.
So, disavow Jesus's teachings, Mark 12:17? The bit that says Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's? Don't follow Jesus' teachings?
fan tai – I think that's exactly what everyone is saying – the church should render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.
Not all atheists want a world without religion. Some of us just want a world where religions aren't granted special privileges.
Well, not Adreana, so I was curious why.
Adreana, I am a very devout person, and I seriously doubt that there is an "atheist agenda" to get rid of churches. In fact, I think that it is their tax-exempt status that sometimes gets churches or rather the people who are controlling them in trouble.
Churches are businesses? Really. What are they selling?
+Donna Cluny Gardner I am not against god-free people nor do I harbor conspiracy theories about them. That is why I call them god-free, not godless (which is often used as a pejorative). Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, when I heard them interviewed on Public Radio, straight up stated they would like to see a world free of religion. Now I thought, and I am saying this without snark, that they were leaders in atheist thought so I figured they were articulating an atheist agenda when they said those things. But I was not suggesting atheist are out to "force" religion out of world society but to "educate" and "elevate" people so thoroughly that religious belief will go the way of believing the world is flat. But I have read many, many atheist here on Google plus straight up call religious belief a mental disorder so I suppose those people would want it forced out but I consider them outliers.
+fan tai This article does a good job of describing my interpretation of the scripture you quoted. I do not interpret that scripture at all as Jesus being pro pay your taxes. As an aside, while I do believe in a supernatural deity, I do not consider Jesus to have been one nor do I take the stories in the Bible literally. http://www.lewrockwell.com/2010/03/jeffrey-f-barr/render-unto-caesar-amostmisunderstood-newtestamentpassage/
+Brittany Constable I don't think churches were set up to be tax free as a special privilege. I think this was a well thought out strategy to strengthen the Establishment Clause. I do not want governments dependent on tax money from churches and I do not think the outcome of that is something atheists want either, as I explained in my previous post.
The power to tax is the power to destroy. Tell me it's not. Tell me.
+Yonatan Zunger true. I just feel like they'd throw their weight around more aggressively if they paid taxes. Sort of like what happened when corporations were declared "people."
+Sarah Rios Like they haven't? How many of the lawsuits against Obamacare are brought on by religious institutions?
Access to heaven +Luke Brady. But really they're in the business if getting more followers, to build bigger churches, to get more followers, to build bigger churches….
+Adreana Langston I like your term god-free, but I can also tell you that many atheists would scoff at that because you're implying they are without something. In their mind there is no god to be free of. Anyway….
Churches can (legally) and do participate politically, including lobbying. While they may not have as broad a freedom concerning it, they still can.
The IRS has published Revenue Ruling 2007-41(http://www.irs.gov/file_source/pub/irs-drop/rr-07-41.pdf), which outlines how churches, and all 501(c)(3) organizations, can stay within the law regarding the ban on political activity. Also, the ban by Congress is on political campaign activity regarding a candidate; churches and other 501(c)(3) organizations can engage in a limited amount of lobbying (including ballot measures) and advocate for or against issues that are in the political arena. The IRS also has provided guidance regarding the difference between advocating for a candidate and advocating for legislation. See political and lobbying activities.
Additionally, EVERY election cycle we hear about preacher specifically telling their congregation whom to vote for. They may not all do it, and maybe some "suggest" versus flat out come out and say it, but to say they don't is disingenuous.
Re Hitchens and Harris. I think Sam Harris might surprise you… he's absolutely against religions based on books written 3,000 years ago with nothing to hold them up. However, he's smart enough to recognize that there is something very human about why we have, collectively and as far back as recorded history goes, had spirituality and religion. He's an avid meditator. As someone who meditates daily, I can tell you that while not religious or god-based… you do get a sense of something divine. We just don't make claims about things that can't possibly be known.
As an aside… despite not taxing and them supposedly not having a voice…. how come we haven't removed "in god we trust" (wasn't originally on our money) and "under god" from the pledge? Because churches would go ape, that's why… oh and there's a bill up to make it permanent (and another coming up trying to do the same in Michigan http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/01/24/michigan-state-senator-introduces-legislation-to-make-under-god-a-permanent-fixture-in-the-pledge-of-allegiance/).
This is a great discussion. Thanks for the opening, Paul!
+Paul Spoerry This is a great discussion and I co-sign with Donna. I chose god-free because since I was fifteen I knew I did not wish to have kids. At 36 I got surgically sterilized. While I was growing up people who loved me and people who did not even know me that well would say "but why would you want to be childless". My answer would be "I do not want to be childless, I want to be childfree, with the emphasis on "free"." So since I chose the term for myself and I honor myself I chose the term for people who do not believe in god with the same honor that I give to myself.
+Paul Spoerry I do not disagree with you about how churches participate in democracy now. I agree with +Sarah Rios about the aggressive level at which that might occur if they were taxed. I also really do not want governments (mostly local and county as oppose to state and federal) becoming dependent on that revenue. It may have unintended consequences the faithful and the god-free would not like.
+Paul Spoerry no churches are not selling access to heaven. If you think that you have no understanding of Christianity.
I"m not an Atheist but that's one hell of a good idea.You only have to assess the Vatican"s
net value which would amount to Trillions.
The tax rate should apply to all Churches
with exemption for Churches that fall under
an agreed, minimum threshold.
Churches don't pay taxes as a charitable organization, not a religious group per se, I believe. Local churches do a lot of good in the community, just as do many other charitable organizations.
Then let the ones that do charity not pay taxes on the charity work they do.
Why should Westboro Baptist not pay taxes?